I had an interesting "conversation" this week that I am going to share.
What started as a smart comment to a facebook picture post, turned into more. But I learned from it...and you can too.
Here's the picture...
It just popped up and I responded...
There were lots of other interesting responses about the pride of man. I liked this one...
But then came this one...
Followed by this one...
Ummm...did I just get called ignorant? Never one to take a slam casually, I had to respond.
Yes, God is sovereign. In fact, God has all kinds of amazing qualities. So, now I am really thinking. Then these two guys made some good points.
And then came this one...
Huh? How did this comment about the ability of God to do as He pleases (whether we like it or not) turn into a "rejoicing" in the sinking of the Titanic. Although I disagree with her judgment of the comments (and attitude of the Christian Church) on this picture, I agree with her theological statements that followed.
And then, of course, I have issues with keeping my mouth shut.
My point with Sodom and Gomorrah is the fact that God HAS exacted punishment on people. For goodness sake, the Old Testament in downright scary! Prior to our new covenant with God through Jesus Christ, people paid for their pride and sinfulness at very, very high costs. Once Jesus came, however, He was appointed as judge. (John 5:22-23 and Acts 10:42)
Yes, sin often means that innocent people suffer. The sinking of the Titanic was a tragic event. I can't imagine the fear, pain, and suffering that those people endured. It was, and is, very sad.
When Noah built the ark, babies drowned. Can you imagine Noah's family listening to the cries of help from those outside? When the Israelites claimed the land that was given to them by God, in many cities there were no survivors. Can you imagine watching as Israeli men killed mothers...and their children...and their babies...at God's command? The horror of it! We, meaning Christians, don't like to talk about these things. It's scary! But we are instructed to fear Him; He is jealous. (Deuteronomy 6:13-15)
You see, God has a plan (Isaiah 46:8-13) that many choose to ignore when they pull these (and other) little necessary pieces out of the His great puzzle.
Now I want to make clear, I am not saying that God heard the statement on the sign above and destroyed the ship and all those in it. But, did prideful attitudes lead to prideful behavior? Did people not worry about doing their jobs correctly (communications, lookouts, life preservers, warning system, evacuation systems, etc.) because of pride in their own craftmanship? Hmmm...
First, what's with the "G-d"?
Second, NOW I'm offended. "...so can anyone who studies the scriptures..."?!
Let's not get 'God's involvement in' and 'God's knowledge of' the events of our lives confused. Although I know that God knows the number of hairs on my head (Luke 12:4-7), that does not mean He intervenes in my daily life.
Furthermore, there were no righteous people in Sodom or Gomorrah. This includes Lot and his family. Nowhere in the the story of Lot (Genesis 18:16-19:38) is Lot declared righteous. He certainly was NOT righteous. READ IT! Lot offered his virgin daughters to evil men. Later, through incest, he impregnated his own daughters while he was sloppy drunk! Lot was CLEARLY not righteous!
In the NIV (New International Version) Bible, 2 Peter 2:7-8 says that Lot was a righteous man. However, when I read all the translations of these verses, I feel that most of them do not capture adequately the content of God's original message to His servant, Peter. Lot was given God's favor...he was granted grace. Lot did not earn this, it was a gift to him from God.
You see, Lot was the son of Abraham, the Father of All Nations. But Abraham, an imperfect man* who found favor with God and was given the gift of grace, asked for these cities to be spared. As it says in Genesis 18, Abraham "bargained" with God to refrain from destroying the cities.
Will you spare them if I find 50 righteous people? Ok
How about 45? Sure
Well, what if I only find 40? Why not?
Don't get mad...what about 30? No problem
I know I'm being bold here, but would you do it for 20? 20 works for me!
Please don't be angry when I ask one more time, how about 10? What if I can only find 10?! You have a deal.
God knew. He is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent. He knew that not one person in Sodom or Gomorrah was righteous. He did not spare these cities. But He did send down angels to instruct Lot's family to get out...and get out quickly.
Ellen, however, is correct in saying that there were righteous people on the ship. When Jesus suffered and died, He did so for our sins...not His own. He took on all of the sins of the world. (1 John 2:2) Since God is eternal and not subject to time as we know it, this includes all people who ever lived on the Earth. God has granted grace to those who did believed and those who do believe in Him as He sees fit. This is a gift that He gives to anyone that HE chooses to give it to. We do not (and have NEVER been able to) earn it. This means that those whom He called at any time in the history of the world to receive the gift of grace, became righteous when Jesus declared, "It is finished." (John 19:30)
But righteous people die every single day. Jesus follower's suffer because of their own sin, the sin of others, and simply from the fact that we live in a fallen world...a world that is full of death and decay (including disease) and will continue to rot as it has since Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit when tempted with the same pride that the sign posted at the beginning of this message exhibits.
God knows that his followers suffer and die. He, however, decides when and how He will intervene. Some would say that He is absent and never intervenes. I know this is false. I have seen Him intervene. Sometime I will share some of the miracles I have witnessed. But whether or not He decides to intervene, He makes all things work for good for those who love Him and are called by Him. (Romans 8:28) We just don't always understand. (Isaiah 55:8-9)
Yes, Ellen, God is merciful. But we cannot forget that what he declared to Moses was “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." (Exodus 33:19 and Romans 9:15)
THIS is what I wanted to say. However, I have been very conscious lately of the fact that when Christians argue the details with other Christians, it hurts the forward progression of Christianity. As followers of Christ, we are all on a journey. Some things have been revealed to some that have not been revealed to others. Yet. (I truly believe that this is a "revealing" and not just knowledge that we find and understand on our own.) This belief humbles me. Maybe Ellen understands something that God has not made known to me at this time.
The important thing about our walks on our own unique Christian paths is not the different little detours we take and dead-ends we hit, rather the fact that all of our paths lead to Him. We, as Christians, all have the same destination to reach.
So after typing, then deleting. Then getting angry and researching and typing more and deleting...and repeating. I listened to God. And I deleted. And I responded:
Man, that was hard. I am a stubborn, prideful woman who thinks she always has to have the last word. I walked away. And I was at peace with my response...and I thanked God for humbling me.
When I looked later to make sure I diffused the situation, I saw this response:
Apparently she needed some time to type, delete, and repeat also. I was relieved to see that others who were reading this little discussion also understood the value of two Christians discussing our faith.
So, as I sat back down at my computer after my pause and I posted this...
And I was raised this way. With people that you love and respect, disagreeing and discussing (even in a heated manner) helps you grow. I remember some of our dinner conversations when I was growing up. (We had family sit-down meals every night and at noon on Sundays.) When friends would come over and sit through some of these, I would get asked later about our arguing! Ha! We didn't see it as arguing. We were learning lessons from each other about controversial topics...rather than just ignoring them. It was healthy. I am grateful for this gift from my parents.
Ellen and I, however, do not know one another. As Christians we should be able to have these conversations through love and respect. And I think we would! But in a public forum (such as a facebook post) I think we needed to follow Ellen's advice taken from the children's Bible School song, "O, be careful little tongues what you say." Others who are on a different place in their own path (or not on a path at all but are playing way off the path in the green, but dying, grass) find fuel in our disagreements to start having doubts or to support their disbelief and justify their sin.
Yes, this is how Christians argue...err, participate in discourse. And the other Christians who were watching agreed.
As you can see from the number of posts listed on the original picture, there were many other comments along the way. I particularly liked this one that came in the heat of the conversation. Matt, a man I don't know, points out a simple fact.
Noah, another unrighteous sinner who was given grace by God, built a huge ship...
(Source: www.worldwideflood.com)
...with a plan from God. He didn't understand it. He suffered because of it. But he built it...humbly. And he lived.
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*It is important to note that Abraham was also NOT a righteous man. In fact, he was an adulterer. His adultery led to the birth of an illegitimate son by the name of Ishmael...and we are ALL still paying for this sin. (Genesis 16) Although Hagar (Ishmael's mom) was promised by God that He would make Ishmael into a "great" nation (Genesis 21:17-18); it is also said that he would live in hostility toward all his brothers (Genesis 25:12-18). And this came to pass (Genesis 16:12). Muslims consider Ishmael to be a great prophet. They believe that they are the inheritors of his legacy. (See Ishmael and Islam)
